4 ways to build a brand that fits your client

Investments are not FDIC-insured, nor are they deposits of or guaranteed by a bank or any other entity, so they may lose value.

Intro: Hello, and welcome to the PracticeLab Podcast, where we talk to top advisors about the traits that make them successful, so you can apply those in your own business. I’m Melissa Phipps.

Today on our podcast, we have Max McQuiston, a practice management consultant at Capital Group, talking with advisors Bart Zandbergen and Letitia Berbaum (who goes by Tish). They’re from The Zandbergen Group Wealth Management in Laguna Beach, California, a DBA* of the registered investment advisor firm Access Wealth Management. And the way these two work together in partnership is really unique.

They have received top advisor accolades, from Forbes and other publications over the past 10-plus years. And they get top marks in client surveys as well. There are a few reasons for that, including client experience, service that goes the extra mile and a distinctly beautiful brand, which we are going to find out about in today’s episode.

From the ocean-view office, to the wine events, to the website that looks like a magazine, it feels like a luxury experience. But it hasn’t always been that way. In this episode, Max talks to them a bit about how they got started, building their team as well as their brand, and the relationships that help their business stand out. So with that, let’s join the conversation.

Max McQuiston: Bart and Tish, welcome to the PracticeLab.

Bart Zandbergen: Thanks for having us, Max.

Letitia Berbaum: Yeah, thanks, Max.

MM: So I'm excited for all of you that are listening today for the chance to hear from two great practitioners. What I want to do is start a little bit, just kind of out of the gate. Tell me a little bit about your background. Why did you get into the business? What do you love about what you do? And Bart, maybe let me start with you, if that's okay.

BZ: I got out of college, and I was ready to go, ready to hit the road like many people are. And I chose the career as a computer programmer. That's what they called it back then, it wasn't IT, that wasn't a word yet. And a couple of years as a computer programmer and realized quickly that this was not the career for me. It was a little bit too antisocial for my personality. So I thought maybe the next big move, or the best step would be to get into a sales or a sales support position, still in the computer world, which is what I did. As it turns out, I wasn't too bad at it. So I became somewhat successful in what I was doing. And you know, for the next couple of years, had a child, bought a house. And because of this, this success, if you will, I engaged a financial advisor. And around my 30th birthday, I remember waking up and thinking, you know, this isn't going to work. I'm financially successful, but I — and I don't want to sound corny — but I realized I wasn't changing lives. I wanted to do something where I had more of an impact on society and on people's lives. And I had this conversation with my advisor at the time. And he looked at me, he listened, he was an excellent listener. And he looked at me and said, “You know, what you're describing is pretty much what we do in this industry.”

So I took that, and for the next six or nine months, thought about it and thought about it. And then I remember as clear as day, two o'clock in the morning, I remember sitting up one morning and thinking, “This is it. This is what I'm going to do.” So, you know, the somewhat irony of it is I've walked away from… well it for a while I did the day job, and at night, I did licensing. And, you know, this was quite some time ago, so there were seminars and phone calling and setting appointments. So I would do that at night while I was getting educated and licensed, and then walked away from a great job and benefits to do what most of us advisors do is to become virtually somewhat unemployed for the first few years as you're gathering clients and trying to build an income. And I will say that it wasn't easy. But if I wouldn't change a thing, I wouldn't change a thing.

MM: I love it from a computer programmer, to I decided I want to change people's lives and waking up at 2 a.m. And remembering specifically that that example I think is great kind of talks a little bit why you're passionate about what you do and why I think you do such a great job for clients. Yeah. Tish, how about you?

LB: I think that, you know, Bart and I have a fantastic partnership because we complement each other. But we're also so different, from different backgrounds. My career or path becoming a financial advisor, really, the spark began when I was in grade school. And the wildest thing is, like, that's where my children are today, age-wise. It's hard for me to even fathom my children doing what I wanted to do back then.

My mom was an entrepreneur. And my father worked for corporate America, and he would go to the bank and go to and make deposits all the time. And I would see other people making these deposits, and I wanted to know what they were doing with these suits in the back, and where were they were going? I was intrigued by this experience. And through that journey, I found a love for investing. I started to track my investments and follow my investments. I begged my mom to open my first investment account, this was in the 90s, and I did quite well. And I fell in love with it.

I started to kind of watch the trends of investing. I started to realize how amazing could it be to create wealth and have tools to help us become wealthy, so I didn't have to always work for my money, I could actually have my wealth grow for me. So from that standpoint, I went this entrepreneurial kind of mindset behind me, as my mom kind of led the path in that I went down this path of knowing, OK, I want to become a financial advisor. I want to be able to figure out, when I was younger, I wanted to be a stockbroker, that was the original dream. And for me, I wanted to create a career that never felt like a job. I didn't want to sign up for a job. I wanted to do something that I absolutely had tremendous passion for, and I can help other people become also financially successful and help them with tools in their lives. For me, it was this passion that drove me to say: If I was going to work an endless amount of hours each day, what is it that I'm going to love just waking up and doing every day? Changing people's lives and helping them create their successes.

I love the idea of partnering with people like Bart. That has given me the ability, as being a woman in this industry, to still have a family, to still have work-life balance. To still be able to contribute to society, but then never let go of my dreams. And that was kind of like my own personal journey. But that was something that was super important to me along the way.

MM: I love it. Both of you mentioned changing people's lives and, I think at the end of the day, that drives someone to do what's in the best interests of their clients, each and every time. One of those hallmarks, I think, of a great practice is doing what's in your client's best interest and the satisfaction you get as you do that. Let me ask you a little about your team. You know, Bart, you started the practice, started from scratch. And as anybody knows, you know, for an entrepreneur, you start a business, it takes time to learn how to build a very successful team and practice, the Zandbergen Group. Tell me a little about the team and how it's constructed. There was a lot of thought that went into that, how your team was structured.

BZ: Yeah, the structure is, in part, there were depths that came into play. When Tish and I decided, you know, three and a half, four years ago that we were going to lift, and what were we going to do? And so we spent about 9-10 months, we called it speed dating. So we looked at, you name it, we talked to them from, from pure banks, to hybrids to RIAs [registered investment advisors], and we had a serious conversation about forming our own RIA. But at the end, we decided that what we were being offered from Axxcess was exactly what we were looking for. And Tish has this great, this great phrase: cake, frosting and sprinkles. Everyone wants a cake, right? Most people at least got to have frosting on their cake. If you can get the sprinkles, you've got the whole thing. So that's what we found with Axxcess.

And so, we decided the timing was not right to form our own RIA. So we're IARs [investment advisory representatives], and why I tell that whole story is that our team and our office consists of Tish and I as client acquisition, client service. And then we have an ops person who takes care of all money movement, anything to do with our custodian. And then we have a concierge, front desk, scheduler, etc. Tish now has an assistant, and we've got another two advisors. But from the team standpoint, that's our primary team. And then the mid-office and back-office is taken care of for us with our oversight at the RIA. So reporting, compliance, trading, we have an investment committee that's part Tish and I, part our CFA and team over at Axxcess.

MM: Terrific. I'm going to come back to roles and responsibilities in a little bit, because I know you've got that pretty well defined. But before I do that, when I think of your team, as a group, just the brand that you've built (and I know there's been an evolution of that), I think it's one of the things that's most distinctive to me about who you are and who you serve. So maybe just walk me through a little bit, both of you talk a little bit about that branding evolution and who it is, what you've created, what you want to represent it, and then who are the clients that you feel like you serve best?

BZ: So yeah, you're right, evolution is probably the best word to describe how our brand has changed or evolved over time. And I don't have any professional marketing education, a little bit in business school, but I don't consider myself a branding and marketing person. But I think, at the end, if you're honest and you're transparent, and you really strive to show that, and I think that's where our strengths are, both Tish and I.

We designed an office that is open and flows, and really shows our love of the ocean and the coast, and we tried to display that. And one of my side things, as you know Max, is a love for wine and fine food. And so we've displayed that in the office. We've made it really comfortable, we want it to be intentionally different from a typical financial adviser office. As you know, Max, when you come in, we have a lounge area that's open and comfortable, with a kind of a kitchen-esque look. And that was really important.

And then, continuing that path is, “OK, how are we going to translate that onto the website?” So that was a lot of effort. We laugh because as much as I don't have professional branding or marketing training, neither does my wife, but she decided to kind of take the horns on that. And she knows nothing about designing websites, and she didn't really design the website, but the poor web designer became my best friend after about two months, either best friend or he was probably over it.

Anyway, she controlled it from start to finish. She had, you know, she brought in wardrobe, set design. She was the art director, worked with a photographer, she was on a mission. But what she really wanted to do was to support Tish and I and the team. And she wanted to make sure that our presence in our personal brand was well displayed. And I think we accomplished it at the end.

MM: And not only do I think you've accomplished it. But if you look at your website and you compare it to what's on LinkedIn, for example, you see a very similar framework, right? Who it is, why I love what I do, who I serve, and how we help them. So there's alignment, right? All through that. Tish, what would you add to that, any thing you'd add, as you think about branding?

LB: Max, I think what you shared is important. All of our messaging and all of our imagery is consistent amongst everything. So all of our social media platforms have the same look and feel, our website has the same look and feel, and even our presentations have the same look and feel. Client reports, the same look and feel. We really want people to feel like when they come to see us, they're really just taken care of with this elegance and this grace. It's not over the top, but it's just really well put together and a lot of attention to detail.

It really, truly is… it's the little details that make a difference on the day to day, where they just know, like, if we're putting the time and effort into these details, then we are absolutely putting in the time and effort into their portfolios and their investments and their lives and their legacy. So it's bridging that gap.

But I think it’s understanding that putting yourself out there, to invest in marketing, to be able to have a true reflection of yourself, you can have pieces. Bart and I, sometimes we’ll have elements that are different, or we’ll lean in on certain topics that are different when maybe we're talking about content and relatability and connection, because that makes us unique. And it helps us connect with the clients that might have a relationship or connection. But at the end of the day, it's all united. And I feel like that's something that's super important, that people see that same consistency on everything. I mean, including the gifts that we send to clients. Sometimes it's about the clients, about what they're getting. But then potentially, it might have like a really beautiful logo on the bottom or it's just subtle that that way that like it's slight messaging, but it's really truly like it's about them. And they're really taking care of us, that underlying messaging across the board.

MM: And to me what sticks out is: You see your website, you see LinkedIn, and then you go into the office, and it just carries forward, right? It's not like a contrast, is just similar framework, and it has a calming presence as you walk in. Tell me a little about…what are the types of clients you guys serve best? Or who is your ideal client?

BZ: So again, a lot of things just evolve, right? I didn't start my career with the thought that I'm only going to work with high net worth and ultra high net worth clients. I started my career probably like most people did, back then, I had clients that were saving $50 a month in American Funds, that’s their investments. You know, time grows, and my clients grew as well. My clients, a subset of them became more and more successful, and to a point where their $50 a month became, you know, multimillions of dollars from other events. We have had clients that have sold companies, that's probably where a majority of the money that we manage comes from. There's been some other liquidity events as well some inheritance. But at the end, we are now primarily a high net worth and ultra high net worth practice.

LB: Yeah, adding my own flavor to that. I feel sometimes I really resonate with women CEOs, women executives, entrepreneurs. And a lot of like what Bart shared, as a lot of companies are getting ready to exit or sell their company, we really are able to, with our tools, help people with complicated situations and simplify them and give them tools to help them through that process.

And really, truly, no matter what stage you are in life, our goal is to really help families through that timeline and get them through that journey, like Bart shared. And a lot of times when you're dealing with maybe, like, ultra high net worth individuals or high net worth individuals, maybe their number-one goal could potentially be everyone has different goals, but it could be not just hey, can I retire? But how do we create a legacy? How do we pass this along to the next generation, and bridging those gaps. So we bring some really special, unique things that we've been able to do over the years, like family meetings, things like this, that really helped bridge those gaps and help multiple generations really solve their family needs.

MM: I love that. I think that tees up a really good topic for me, as you think about the other clients that you serve. And Bart, I think that the evolution of what you started to get to where you are now, it's doesn't mean you can't serve everybody, but you only have a certain amount of time to serve. And so, the people that have the problems and challenges that we're just uniquely able to serve in an efficient and effective way.

You know, if I look on your website, it mentions some of the topics like wealth management, family office, true wealth, estate and legacy planning, tax planning, retirement planning, divorce planning, and even insurance planning. So a lot of topics you cover, but one in there was unique to me, that I don't see very often on a website, and that's true wealth. Would you mind unpacking that? What is true wealth?

BZ: So, you know, much like the aha moment I had, you know, when I got into the business, about 10 years into the business, I had another aha moment. And that was, you know, what is wealth? Right? To define that. To give credit where credit is due, it was a coaching program that kind of helped bring it to light that I was involved with about 20 years ago. And the takeaway concept was “true wealth.” We kind of adapted that to ourselves, our own. And we have eight pillars. I mean, it would probably take an hour if we dove into each one of them, but we'll definitely cover at high level. But at the end, money isn't the eight of the pillars. And example like we have health is the ultimate wealth, family and friends, legacy, faith. That's a sample.

And you know, we spend a lot of time on how Tish and I are both kind of fitness nutcases. But you know, it's really important. Over my life, and over my career, I've seen people that have worked so hard to become wealthy, you know, “wealthy” financially, and what have they done, they have forgotten some of these people, many have forgotten their health, at the expense of getting wealthy. And I'll tell you something, you can't buy, you can't buy health, you can't buy fitness, you can't buy, you know, mobility, you can buy, you can pay for a trainer, you can pay for a food program, but you've got to do the work. And so we, you know, we spend a lot of time with clients, because we're kind of soul-searching, and in fact gathering, really covering what's important to clients. And we try to instill and create a true wealth balance in them as we go through the process.

MM: I love that you describe, help them look at what their goals are, help them prioritize, but maybe bringing goals into the picture that maybe weren't on the forefront of their mind, maybe, but as you talk about it starts to resonate, right? It's not just your wealth, but your health as well. And I wouldn't use the term nutcase. I might exchange that for aficionado. I think you’re health aficionados and, you know, being fit, trying to live your best lives, you know, I know matters to you. And it doesn't mean all clients need to do that or want to do that, but helping them understand what is important and helping prioritize those goals, to me, one of the greatest services that an advisor offers is helping to prioritize your goals, helping understand and prioritize and then create a plan.

What else would you say makes you distinct or maybe is part of what you do exceptionally well in the marketplace?

BZ: In our business, and not just our industry, but in our industry, specifically, relationship is probably more important than anything. Look, every financial advisor, or most financial advisors, manage money. Some do a little better than others. We think we do it really, really well. But at the end, you know, planning I think, is really important. But the relationship…

We did a survey, it's been about 10 years now. And I will tell you, I was very, very nervous. I had a lot of anxiety, because we sent out to our top 30 clients, you know, a handful of questions. Why do you work with Bart and Tish? What are some of their strong points? What are weak points? And I was dreading getting the response. Because, I don't know, I felt super vulnerable.

We got all of them back. And they were all amazing, you know, they were all very complimentary. What really rose to the top was that our ability to actually sit and listen, and understand. And I think it's kind of an old saying: We have two ears and one mouth, right? So we should listen more than we talk.

Even in our intake meetings, you know, at the end, we don't say very much. We throw out questions and we listen, and then throw out questions. And you listen. And, you know, I think at the end, people walk away, like, “Those guys were really great! And matter of fact, he didn't say too much, but they're really great.”

But we take that information. And it proves we listen, because when we come back, and Tish is the master of running our financial planning software and the planning department, we address what's important to them. And we're constantly following up. I personally, I've been older than I should have been in the business longer. I've had clients for over 30 years, we now go to clients’ social events: birthday parties, and kids’ weddings and birthdays. We now have one of our oldest client’s son that's just started working for us. I think that says a lot.

MM: Agree. 100%. I think you mentioned that term that I think is so important, is willing to be vulnerable, right? Sending out a survey, ask, “Hey, why did you choose to work with us? What do you like most about working with us?” To me, that's one of those best practices, that advisors who ask for feedback get it and then implement it. You know, clients will tell us a lot of things if we just asked, but sometimes when you were like you said, Bart, you didn't know what the answer was going to be. Sometimes that can be a little nerve-wracking. But super powerful, right?

Do you do any kind of ongoing client surveys? Like how do you get, you know, more client feedback in today's environment? Do you still do some of that?

BZ: Yeah, so we just in the last couple of months talked about, we're kind of creating the round two or three of this. So we are in the process of implementing a more structured process of getting that feedback.

MM: I love it.

LB: We also do, as part of our normal like onboarding process, we do a very limited questionnaire. But it's more about preferences and likes and dislikes and how we can help serve them better, not necessarily like what Bart was saying. I think that's the next phase of, like, how it's more feedback on their experience. But we do have some things that we're sharing now.

MM: Perfect.

Melissa Phipps: That’s it for this episode of the PracticeLab podcast. We will continue our conversation in episode two, where Bart and Tish describe their financial planning process and how they have family wealth meetings. Thanks again to Max McQuiston and to Tyler Furek, the Capital Group wealth management consultant who works with Bart and Tish.

If you liked what you heard today, hit the subscribe button and consider leaving a rating and review, because that helps other advisors discover this show.

PracticeLab is brought to you by Capital Group. You can find all these episodes and more at practicelab.com.

I hope you found this helpful, and I look forward to joining you on the next episode of the PracticeLab podcast.

*DBA stands for does business as under a different firm name.

Investments are not FDIC-insured, nor are they deposits of or guaranteed by a bank or any other entity, so they may lose value. 

Investments are not FDIC-insured, nor are they deposits of or guaranteed by a bank or any other entity, so they may lose value.

Hello, and welcome to the PracticeLab Podcast, where we talk to top advisors about what makes them different. I’m Melissa Phipps.

Today on our podcast, we have part two of a conversation with Max McQuiston, a practice management consultant at Capital Group, and advisors Bart Zandbergen and Tish Berbaum from The Zandbergen Group Wealth Management in Laguna Beach, California, a DBA* of the registered investment advisor firm Axxcess Wealth Management.

In episode one, we learned all about how the two work well together at providing a high standard of client service and a distinctly beautiful brand. In this episode, we’ll hear a little bit about the goals-based planning they do, and in particular how they have tough wealth transfer conversations by facilitating family meetings. With that, let’s jump back into the conversation.

Max McQuiston: Now, just let me come back to you on the financial planning. I know you kind of run that at the firm, by and large, not that all of you aren't capable. And I know that's kind of where you really excel as one of those areas. How do you keep a financial plan alive? You know, lots of advisors say they do financial planning. Most all of them say they do it, but then when you ask clients, you know, a much smaller subset of them say they actually have a plan. How do you keep, you know, you customize the plan, but how do you keep it real and live for them? What's been your best practice on that?

Letitia Berbaum: I feel like we have had the ability to continue to adapt using technology. Some of the technology allows us to be able to be more efficient with our time. Right? So that could just be simple things, you know, checking in with clients. But because we do a customized financial plan for clients (and really, financial plan is more of an industry term), but we're always checking in on what's going on. And it's part of our systems and our workflows. So when things just happen naturally with clients, we open a new account, there’s a shift, it's an automatic, we update their plan. It's just part of our normal flow. So we're constantly communicating with clients, at the very least to the cadence of a quarterly, and we're getting this lovely information from them.

It's just real consistency. We're able to utilize our tools to get updated information that's really a simple, step-by-step survey from a client to say, “Hey, this is where we're at. Any changes or modifications?” And they love it. They love to know that we're thinking about them. They love to know that they're on track.

We show them this bar graph that basically represents how they're doing on track of their goals. And we will throw it up all the time. And since we're already usually keeping our information current, we can have a meeting, and all of a sudden something comes up and they've got, let's say, fears or worries about something, transitioning. We can throw it up easily. And it's because it's up to date, we can say, “Hey, this is where we're at. You're still on track, we're OK." And it helps with market volatility, makes them feel more at ease. Look, this is the goal, we're on track with a goal. And this is the reason why. So keeping that plan is really important, not just with a portfolio, but it really connects with their specific goals.

Bart and I share this word, the family index, like what's important to them? And we're reinforcing that into our implementation of the model process, right? Just making sure we're on track with what their goals are. So I think aligning what we do in our world of investing, which sometimes can be overwhelming to their goals. And it's a relatable, tangible thing. So when they see the two connected, it just makes people feel sometimes so much more at ease. And then they can have access to this as well and download it or generate reports, but I think it's more consistency they love.

MM: That's awesome. Being consistent I think is really important. Revisiting those goals, coming back, are they still in the right order? One of the things you mentioned upfront is connecting with that next generation. As you think about that holistic, you know, family, how do you guys connect to that next generation?

Bart Zandbergen: So, you know, one is obviously just communicating conversation. There are times where clients will ask, and sometimes they hesitate, because the child at the time may not have much money, “Is there some way you can help out our child?” Of course we're going to take care of family.

But you know, the bigger conversation is, and you just kind of alluded to it, we've done family meetings, which is where we want to find out what's important to our clients. And whether it's a “What are we going to do with our charitable accounts that we've established?” or “How much should our adult children know now about what our status is? And how that is going to change over time? And how it's going to pass generations?” So once we've established that, we’ll create the family meeting. And, you know, one of the more successful ones I think we've had, we went through and asked what the values were of each of the of the children to see how closely they aligned. You know, we didn't prep them, ask them what their values were. And in the end, they were very closely aligned with the parents, which was really great for them to hear. Because they have significant amount of charitable funds that they're in, it's important to them where that money goes and how it's going to continue to, you know, to live on past their lives.

LB: To parlay on that same story, this is an example of a family that didn't want their next generation to know the details or anything, actually. And I think this is actually very common. A lot of times, they don't want them to know anything, so they don't have any communication. And so what we like to do is we like to bridge the gaps. And I see this at any age, by the way. So what our team does, when we do these family meetings, we let the parents set the expectations of what they're willing to share today, or want to get out of this today. And then we elaborate from there. And so it's that customization that really makes us unique, and really has a standout.

For example, like what Bart has shared, is we got the family to unite on goals, right? And things that they are charitably inclined to, because that's a big focus for those parents. So then that way it can be part of — and we've created this now — part of their family annual holidays. They go back and revisit their goals and what their family legacy is, and charities that they believe in, and how they're giving back to the community, because that was super important to their core values. We facilitated that. But our role in that is, you know, we're helping them direct funds and maybe like the charitable intent, and helping them create that legacy.

Another two more like really quick things with generational steps is we like to create processes that help bridge the gaps today. So you're seeing a lot of baby boomers that may be in their, let's say, you know, maybe people in their 50s to 65. And they might have a parent that's getting ready to, you know, just getting more elderly. And they're trying to figure out, what do we do? What do you have in place? And a lot of times these conversations haven't happened yet.

So we can also be the quarterback for them. And then we put together a team meeting that maybe has maybe their attorney, or our attorney or accountants. And maybe we just put together their team of their professional contacts. And we're able to help bridge those gaps for them, and really transcend what their goals and overarching objectives are. And sometimes those little conversations can help shift these generational conversations. Because it's sometimes super uncomfortable. When you're like, “Well, all the money is going to Aunt Susie, and the kids getting nothing.” I mean, those conversations are uncomfortable. So we try to really educate people along the way to help shift those gaps.

Then the last thing on that for generational wealth that's kind of like, you know, if we're going to look at the pendulum and looking at like an older generation, how we can help with the communication of talking about where their money is and what their plans are. For the younger generation, say they have younger children, we take a different approach. And the approach could potentially be, you know, get them excited about what even a stock is, or a company or a fund. Because if they kind of get the bug for investing and understand what this financial, basically you're giving them financial literacy as our gift, of what we give them to our clients.

And they might not have something that's preset It's maybe more customized for these smaller, you know, younger, generations. But really, once they understand what they're doing, then they can potentially be great investors for life. And they know what they're investing in. So we've helped maybe bridge those gaps. And we've heard from families that, maybe parents thought that they've shared these tools and they didn't hear it. And now that we've created this amazing financial family dynamic, we're changing lives in ways that you wouldn't even know.

So yes, we're helping them build their wealth, maybe in their investments. But in addition, at home, parents are feeling so much more confident in the next generation, because they're seeing their excitement about maybe their own understanding of what's the stock, what's a bond, what are these investments that they're investing in, and seeing how they're utilizing these tools. And that's completely priceless. That is giving parents peace of mind. It's giving the children the ability to have stand on their own, and their parents to have more respect for them and want to be able to give them more and share more. So those shifts I see.

MM: Yeah, I think, you know, Bart, you've mentioned upfront, and Tisha, a great example of that you mentioned upfront, sometimes you have clients that just aren't ready or aren't comfortable sharing. But if you don't have the conversation with them about it, Cerulli did some studies in Q3 last year, that gave a really high percentage of people, much more than we would think, who have significant wealth, really haven't had that conversation. So that’s the importance of having a conversation.

I think you mentioned upfront, being willing to be vulnerable. And you've mentioned that a few times to me, like that's one of the things that differentiates good from better or better from the best, right? Is how do you create the ability for the team to be involved and feel like they can make contributions? How well do you define roles and responsibilities to the point that people know what success looks like? What their roles are? I know that evolves over time. But how have you designed that, because I think that definition, that specificity is one of your great assets.

BZ: Yeah, and, you know, like everything else, that is constantly evolving. We have kind of, here's our baseline, right? So, the four of us have our baseline duties, if you will, and job descriptions. We all, to a certain degree, are client-facing, you know, some more than others. Sandy is very client-facing. Danielle talks to clients every day. Tish and I, of course, every day. So, you know, part of that is, you know, how we present ourselves, you know, both on the phone, through email, physically, and, you know, and how we look and dress and so forth, when people come into the office.

Best practices is another place where I have, you know, kind of garnered some ideas. Coaching best practices, like this position, you know, you have it listed under operations, maybe it's better suited for, you know, the front desk person? Tish and I have overlap of some things, and there are just inherently what we've decided over time too, they're inherently some things that I'm better equipped to do. And some things I'm just not equipped to do. And luckily, there's a space in the middle, where Tish does better at things, and I do better at things. And we're trying to divide in that direction.

So, you know, I think a big takeaway from this whole talk is evolution. We try something, and if it doesn't work, we're, you know, we'll pivot, make some changes to until it does work.

LB: Yeah, on that same point is, you know, we've worked with coaches in the past. That's helped us with structure and just kind of refining, but a lot of times, that's a blueprint. And then we've done additional work behind the scenes, multiple times. And over time, we've kind of gone back and revised it. But understanding who's the players on your team, understanding what their strengths are, understanding what their weaknesses are, and then how do you best maximize their strengths, and then maybe you delegate the weaknesses to someone else, if that's their strength. And we have been able to, because maybe we're a smaller firm, but really be able to pivot and shift like what Bart shared, like, depending on someone's their role, maybe their role traditionally will have certain elements in it, but you know, if they have this amazing, they're great talent in this area. We'll lean in on that.

And so, like Bart said, as well, also people shift and change and maybe their interests change, or they want to go on a different track of how they want to continue to grow or they will have different interests. That also inspires our team to continue to be excited about their roles and their responsibilities and their continued role within our firm. And it helps with retention and keeping our team intact for a longer period of time. Because the longer we have our team connected, the better our clients get better services. And we're really united in what we're doing. And they understand the stories of the clients.

And what you shared in the very beginning, you know, is we're connecting. They're not just clients. We go much further than that. We've got stories, you know, we’re the first call during a family member's death, we're first call sometimes during critical situations that not even other family members know. So because our team has, as we all have our role of what we're doing, we're able to really maximize that so we can have that. We can be that person that our clients can lean on at these pivotal moments.

MM: I can't thank the two of you enough for the chance to get to know you, to look at what you do and the lives that you change. And the way that you do it. There's no one right way to do it. But boy, you sure have found a pattern that I think works really well for you and for your clients. So a tip of the cap to both of you. Thanks for jumping in the lab with us today and honored to have you, and to all of you listening, thanks for tuning in. I just remind you that we have a website called PracticeLab.com. It's part of the Capital Group website. And it's really us trying to help you not just on the investment side, which is critical. It's what we've done for years, but at the same time help you be better practitioners to help you serve people even better.

LB: Thanks much, Max.

BZ: Thank you, Max, we appreciate you.

Melissa Phipps: That’s it for this episode of the PracticeLab. Thanks again to Bart Zandbergen, Letitia Berbaum and Max McQuiston for the great discussion. And thanks to Tyler Furek, the Capital Group wealth management consultant who works with Bart and Tish.

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