Shaun Tucker: Hello, and welcome to today's PracticeLab webinar. Thank you so much for joining us.

I'm your host and moderator Shaun Tucker, and I'm the director of practice management here at Capital Group.

Hey, I'm really excited about today's event. We're gonna talk about getting the right referrals from clients and centers of influence, COIs. We all agree it's a critical part of any advisor's practice, but if we're being honest, one that's often easier said than done. Some scenarios that might make sense. Maybe you're not getting many referrals and you're wondering how to build that pipeline, or you want to know which COIs to go after and not just the same old accountants or attorneys. Or maybe you just don't know how or when to ask for a referral. And if you're being honest, it just feels awkward. Maybe a little like that junior high school dance all over again.

Or maybe you are getting referrals, but they're not the right ones for your practice. Um, and if you are getting the right ones, maybe you're not getting them consistently and you need to implement a more sys- systematic and, and sustainable process. Or how many of us really finally need to take that referral plan, put it in writing, and incorporate it into the broader marketing plan that we have? So if any of those scenarios describes you, you're in the right place. And I'm really happy to bring this distinguished panel to you today because they're going to address all of these things and more. So before I introduce our panel, let me get into a couple of housekeeping items.

Uh, first, if you click in the documents tab, uh, on the right-hand side of your screen, you're gonna find some resources that we hope you'll check out. Two that are important that I would highlight: the slides for this presentation and the CE credit, and the CE quiz rather, that you're gonna need to, uh, to look into if you want credit after this session.

One note that I want to make on the slides. We're gonna reference a number of them today to support our conversation, but we're not gonna read every one of them word for word, and we're not gonna address all of them. So we're gonna breeze through them. But rest assured you can review all of the slides in the resources section at your leisure. Okay, second thing I want to mention. The Q&A tab, also in the right-hand side there in the top. Uh, this is where you're gonna type in your questions. Uh, time permitting we're gonna get into Q&A at the end. Feel free to enter your questions in this part, uh, of the Q&A window anytime during the webinar. And we're gonna try and get to your questions later. If for some reason we don't address them, apologies, but we will, of course, follow up through your Capital Group team to try to answer those questions.

This is also where we'd ask you to enter any tech problems you're having. We'll try to address those. And then finally, if you need to step away and for some reason can't rejoin us, uh, rest assured we will record this and we'll make a replay available for, i- in the next couple of weeks on our website. Okay, let's dive into the good stuff. Let's introduce you to our three panelists.

First, we have our special guest Molly Bennard. Molly is the president of international operations at Focus Financial. I can't think of anyone that knows more about setting a practice up for scale and organic growth than Molly. She has an, uh, a really impressive past. She served as the CEO of Connectus Wealth Advisers, and she currently has a really big job overseeing global growth at Focus Financial, which has over 400 billion in assets under advisement. Maybe as a testament to the scope of her big job, Molly's joining us today from Australia, where it's currently just after 6:00 AM. I, I say that again, just after 6:00 AM. Molly, wow.

Molly Bennard: (laughs)

Shaun Tucker: Um, and I guess I'm joking in saying this, but if you see the background getting brighter and brighter, it's because the sun is just rising in Australia.

Max McQuiston: (laughs)

Shaun Tucker: Um, but, but in all seriousness, Molly is a terrific just partner. She's a member of Capital Group's RIA Advisory Board. Uh, she helps us deliver our very best to clients. And we thank you again, Molly, uh, for joining us today. Okay, next up-

Molly Bennard: [inaudible ] here.

Shaun Tucker: No, it's great to have you. Uh, next up we have Max McQuiston. Max is an advisor practice management consultant here at Capital Group. He has over three decades of industry experience. Max is sat on your side of the table. He spent a long time as an advisor at Raymond James, who was also on the distribution side of our business as a wealth management consultant before joining our practice management team. So, Max, welcome sir. Uh, and then rounding out our panel is Jon Wainman to my far left. Uh, Jon has also a practice management consultant. He has over two d- decades of industry experience and has a specialization in working with advisors that work with retirement plan practices. Uh, like Max, Jon, uh, was on the distribution side of our business, uh, calling on retirement plan advisors as a retirement plan counselor before coming onto our practice management team. So, Jon, great to have you on the panel as well.

Okay, let's get to today's topic getting the right referrals from clients and COIs. We're gonna cover it in four sections. And so we'll pull up the slide that gives you our agenda for today. First, we're gonna cover the importance of organic growth. Second, we will talk about the foundational things that you'll need to put in place for your referral strategy to be successful. And then third and fourth, where we'll, we'll, where we will spend the most time. We're gonna get into some specifics and the how to, if you will, on COI referrals and then client referrals. Okay. I've now done enough talking.

Let's get into it. Let's get into the opportunity for organic growth. Max, I'm gonna turn it over to you for the first question.

You work with hundreds of advisors throughout the course of each year. Why is organic growth so important and why are we talking about it today?

Max McQuiston: I think it's a great question. I think, uh, I would frame it in two different aspects. The first is, it's the number one request we get for, from advisors is, Max, can you help me grow? Or do you have other ideas or best practices that you're seeing what o- t- that other people are doing that maybe I could implement into my practice? And, and part of that presupposes the fact that, you know, the reality is, is, you know, you've gotta carve out time to grow. It's gotta be intentional. Uh, you know, we know roughly 70% of people's, uh, uh, new business comes from referrals, but we want to talk a little bit about how to make sure you have a specific process around that. And secondly is just looking at the dynamics of a book, people are saving, uh, money, uh, they're working with you, uh, to, to, uh, help them, you know, achieve the goals and dreams they want.

And those goals and dreams often include, you know, pulling money from their accounts, whether it be for college, whether it be for a second home or, or even just a, a first home, or maybe it's just, uh, for what they... Most of us save for is retirement. So, you know, when you, when you look at the slide on the screen, you can see that in, on average, just over 3% of a practice is leaving for reasons that they've saved it for. But then you also have, you know, some unintentional where somebody may have taken their account away from you, or, or maybe they passed away. And the, the heirs, you didn't have relationships with the heirs, uh, and, and they left. So, you know, you've gotta replace both of those. So you need to grow more than 4% in, in new assets.

I remember working with an advisor and I was talking to him, "How much leaves every year?" And he goes, "Max, on average it's about 30 million." Meaning he, he needed to grow, you know, bring in at least 30 million in order to just, to, to, to, to, to remain where he was. But none of us wanna stay where we're at, we're always trying to think about how do we grow. So that organic growth is really important. And one thing I want to just point out, um, a, a statistic that I like to ask advisors that, you know, generally I, I find isn't something they've thought of necessarily in the same context is. If you look at your, your book of assets and you say, at what age do half of the assets reside above and half of them fall below, meaning what's the average weighted age of your assets. If, is, you know, on average it's in the mid-sixties.

If that number creeps towards 70, it becomes really difficult to stay in, in net inflows. Uh, so it's, it's really thinking about how important growth is. It's hard. If you're not growing, you're shrinking. And, so that to me is why it's always on people's radar. It doesn't matter how good a practice is, they're always trying to get better and growth is absolutely one part of that.

Shaun Tucker: Yeah. Um, a lot there. Average age of assets, I think that's something we should all write down and think about. But it's tough to accept what you just said, right? If you're not growing, you're shrinking. And I know a lot of you in the audience are all too familiar with that, and, and that's why you're here. And you probably want us to, to kind of rush to all the tactics around referrals as a solution to that. But, but before we do, there's some really important things that you have to have in place first or your referral plan won't be as successful as you want it to be. And so, Molly, I'd love to, to bring you into the conversation here. I know you're really passionate about this, this, uh, topic, and you emphasize it a lot with the large teams that you work with. But what are these foundational things that they need to focus on for their referral strategies to work?

Molly Bennard: Yeah, thank you, Shaun. You know, to the point you're, if you're not growing, you're shrinking. You know, I, a lot of times I'll say, if you're not growing, you're dying. (laughs) Um, but, you know, the reality is, um, you know, across all the businesses that, you know, I've worked with over the years, um, you know, growth, uh, from a business perspective needs to be intentional. And so, you know, many business I have, businesses I've encountered over the years, um, within the industry, you know, they may not have growth as a strategic objective. Um, many firms don't have a strategic plan or a strategy laid out for the next, whether it's 12 months or three years, um, with goals associated with growth. And the truth is, is, if you don't have that in place, you know, ultimately there'll be no roadmap and there'll be no budget to make the growth happen.

So it's really important, um, to be intentional. And, you know, I'd like to say, if you don't know where you're going, how do you expect to get there, right? So, you know, what's really important is to have, um, a process in place. So, you know, what it looks like in practice basically is that, you know, if you make growth a strategic objective and you set some tangible goals at the top level, it allows the leadership team to start the conversation as a firm and make growth part of the actual culture of the firm, part of your values and, and part of your strategic objectives. So, you know, then from there, you basically start building a plan. And so, you know, I would frame it into four steps.

Um, you know, first, um, you know, refine and strengthen your value proposition. Second, you know, really focus on a specific segment of the market, um, or segments depending on your firm and size.

Um, third and importantly, define goals and KPIs [Insert onscreen spell out – KPIs: Key performance indicators]. And then fourth, um, you need to have a plan and a budget around it. So, you know, I'll kind of jump into each of those in a little bit more detail.

You know, I would say, you know, when it comes to, um, articulating your value proposition, you know, it really is a process that goes all the way to articulating your why. So, um, that includes things like reaffirming and, or confirming your vision, your values, and your mission as a company. And then ultimately your website, your marketing collateral, and how you work with your clients aligns to that proposition. So there's consistency in, you know, your ethos as a firm and also how you position yourself to clients from a marketing perspective. Um, also, it's very important as part of that process to start specifying your target market. Um, because that a- actually links back to your, to your value proposition and who you are and your unique selling proposition to that target market.

So, you know, it comes back to thinking through things like who is your ideal client and segment, what services you plan to offer them, and ultimately what differentiates you and how do you cater to that segment particularly.

The second part is, um, really defining, um, your target market. And I like to call it the what, right? And so truthfully, many businesses struggle here. Um, you know, as the legacy approach to marketing and business development was really just to cast a wide net. Um, but we realize nowadays that you can't be everything to everyone, and it's really important to be focused when it comes to business development and client segmentation and service. So what we know is that the more specific your target market is, the better chance you have at grow- growing your business and driving growth.

And I think if you s- s- look to the next page here that we have. Um, I think we have some statistics basically there that, you know, um, if you work within a specific target market, what we see is that firms that do that really have about two times the growth of another firm.

So that's, that's pretty compelling, right? Um, (laughs) so, you know, what I would say is it's really important to pick a segment, um, but, but also to pick a segment that fits within your practice or your business. So, um, that's ultimately where you're going to have interest and expertise, um, where you can effectively, um, have the resources and services to address them, um, and importantly, make sure it's a market that's a meaningful opportunity, right? Um, so that includes things like looking at the overall size, growth trends, affluence levels of the segment, and so forth.

The third step is really around, is around goals, right? Um, and having specific and importantly, measurable goals. So once you start breaking down your strategic imperatives, you'll really wanna define activity-based KPIs. So, um, I'm a big numbers person. I'm an accountant by trade, so I'm all about numbers and data. (laughs)

Um, and so, you know, you do need to start measuring things like leads by source, number of touch points, the actual outcomes, including things like number of leads or clients closed, the size of your client, revenue or AUM [Insert onscreen spell out – AUM: Assets under management] impact. And, and of course, segment that by, um, each of the activities. So when you look at the activities and the source, see the effectiveness of each of those activities and the sources that, that are driving it. You know, as I mentioned, I'm a numbers person, so measuring data is key to this process. And, you know, if you RIAdon't measure the data and you don't have the information, quite frankly, your goal never existed, right? So, you know, having a good tool to document your goals and your activity and outcomes is crucial. Uh, because again, if you don't measure that data, you can't gain insights and you're unable to make decisions and then iterate on strategy.

Um, and then, you know, the last part is really, um, the how, right? So building your plan. Uh, you know, as I mentioned earlier, if you don't know where you're going, um, how do you get there? So, um, firms with specific plans, um, and I think the data shows it, um, gain 67% more clients than those without. So that's a pretty impressive statistic. So again, um, you know, I always like to say go back to the data. So it's very important, um, you know, to, um, create the goals and then have activity metrics alongside it. Um, and of course with that will come a cost, um, you know, to conduct those activities. And, um, again, you know, your plan will get pretty granular. Um, obviously the example on the page is somewhat high level, but, you know, ultimately it will get very granular. Um, and again, really important to measure progress against those objectives and then use that data to assess the effectiveness and, of your strategies, and then, of course, your return on your investment.

Shaun Tucker: Uh, Molly, thank you. There was such a wealth of wisdom there. Uh, I wrote a couple of things down. Just growth as a str-, as a strategy, and making sure you have a growth plan in place. A lot there around defining your niche based on your value proposition. And then I love the examples of the specific goals that you set. But I, I just wrote down in particular, if you can't measure it, it never existed. I think that's a mantra we should all adopt. Um, you know, so let's, um, you know, some of the, some of the key things here is have a value prop, have a marketing plan, and above all set goals. Um, Jon, I'm gonna bring you into the conversation now. How do you help advisors think through this process of creating that plan? And then maybe secondarily, I know you'll go there, is where do referrals fit into this?

Jon Wainman: Sure. Um, and maybe if you don't mind throwing that slide back up. Um, to build on what Molly said, I, I completely agree. It's really important to be intentional about growth. Uh, and I too, uh, appreciate being able to, to evaluate data.

And so I think four areas that I would think about if you're looking on the left-hand side, is, um, if you're building a marketing plan, is, is what are you trying to accomplish, right? Are you trying to maintain your business? Are you trying to grow it? Where, what sources do you want to get growth from? Are you trying to build client referrals, as an example? Are you trying to boost digital leads? So I think that is question one that I would think through.

Uh, number two is, you know, Max and I engage with a lot of advisors through the course of the year. And in terms of budgeting, to Molly's point, um, it's really important to think through that. And quite frankly, we see a very wide array of answers. So you see here, the industry average is about 2% of revenue. What I would tell you is it's a little bit barbelled. There's a lot of advisory practices that do either none or maybe just under 1%. And then on the far end of the curve, you do get some folks that are trying to be mega growers doing eight to 10% of revenue per year. So think about a budget.

I think number three, um, Molly hit on something that is really important, which is the need to specialize, the need to have some kind of niche. And so think about the different channels. These are very high level buckets, but I think if you're focusing on retirees, for example, right? What channels are you likely to hit, uh, to meet retirees? I think client events might be one, right? Facebook might be another one. Uh, conversely, if you're thinking about business owners, I think LinkedIn would be phenomenal, right? Building out and investing in your website to broaden reach might be another approach.

And then lastly, to Molly's point, I think having that, uh, having that marketing plan, this is all about measuring ROI [Insert onscreen spell out – ROI: Return on investment], it's about not being impatient, giving it some time to see what works. And eventually over time you'll figure out this is what's driving success and what's not. So that's a little bit more in terms of building out the plan.

What's really interesting if you, if you move ahead, is, um, when we go to advisors and we ask, what channels are you leveraging today? I think predominantly what you see here is you see most advisors leverage personal engagement, uh, channels, right? So it's doing client events and it's referral driven, right? That's the vast majority.

The digital channels, which you see below, tend to trail off significantly. And I think historically, when Max and I have conversations with advisors on this front and you, you say, "Why is this happening? Why aren't you leveraging digital channels more predominantly?" Really the question becomes, "Don't really know how to start," right? And so I think it's something we'll dive into as we progress here. If we take this concept of how are advisors marketing today? If we reverse that question, we say, all right, this is how advisors market. The flip side is how are clients actually finding their advisor?

And so the mirror of this question, if you move ahead, is, um, there was some work done figuring out where are clients finding their advisor? And really the answers were broken down to the three different age buckets.

So you've got clients over the age of 65 clients, 45 to 64, and clients under the age of 45. And really what stands out is clients over the age of 45 heavily referral driven, right? Those personal engagement tactics. What's interesting is you see a switch as you go to millennials and below. So the under 45 bucket, and you see the rise of digital media, digital advertising start to take over. And so regardless of what you're doing today, I think it speaks to the importance, especially if you have generational wealth of needing to diversify the channels that you market.

Shaun Tucker: Jon, that was great. Um, really appreciate it. I just, Molly gotta bring you back in and just maybe if we could pull that slide back up again. I know you spend a lot of time thinking about your business, its growth, especially with respect to the next gen of clients. And, and Jon, you said it, uh, a little bit earlier, but, but what do you make of that information as you think about reaching next gen clients?

Molly Bennard: Yeah, I mean, you know, when you look at that page, um, the, um, I think it's the first and the the third, uh, row there, um, they really give you a clear perspective on, you know, what's happening as we look at the shift in, um, the demographic of clients, right? So, you know, we're, we're in a world where there's a shifting pre- preference, um, and a trend towards digital, right? Um, and, you know, I think it, it's a big kind of realization for many of our, our businesses and the entire industry that, um, the internet and online search actually hold more weight and credibility about an advisor or business than another person's opinion, right?

And so, um, no matter what, even if the client is referred to an advisor through another individual, they will end up on the internet validating, right, the information about that advisor or business and assess the credibility based on what Google tells you, right? So, you know, it's, it's a really, um, important shift that, you know, ultimately, you know, we all need to incorporate that into our marketing strategy. Uh, and importantly, um, you know, just, just to the point earlier made, um, by, by Jon, you know, clients, uh, if your clients are living on the internet, right, you need to meet them where they're at, right?

And so if you, if you are thinking about growing and, and business development and strategies, and you're trying to attract the next generation, um, and generally, you know, all generations these days, you do need to think through a digital strategy.

Shaun Tucker: Yeah, I think that powerful, powerful wisdom there, um, mindset shift, thinking about how to reach next gen clients, uh, meeting them where they're at. I think that's terrific stuff. Uh, thank you, Molly, appreciate that, that add-on comment.

Um, okay, so now let, let's get into the third section around referrals, third and fourth section. We're gonna spend time first on COIs, and we're gonna break this down into some steps. So if we can kind of show these, this summary of the steps we're gonna take.

The first step is that we wanna understand the importance of COIs. Secondly, we're gonna find the right COIs to focus on. Third is about creating that plan to engage those COIs. And then as Molly's been emphasizing, you know, let's set mutual goals with them. So I'm gonna cover the first and then hand it over to Jon and Max to cover the other three. But, but let me throw up some stats here on this first one to show you why COIs are so important.

One that caught my attention a lot came from Schwab's latest RIA [Insert onscreen spell out - RIA: Registered investment advisor] benchmarking study. And it shows that advisors with a defined ROI referral plan generated over four times as many assets as those that didn't. Let that one sink in. Four times. And there's some other compelling revenue stats here, et cetera, client satisfaction steps, but that's really important. Having that COI referral plan is critically important. And as a part of that plan, you've gotta spend time thinking about who are the right COIs that you gotta work with. So Jon, I'm gonna come back to you. Uh, talk to us about that next step, finding relevant COIs.

Jon Wainman: Yeah, no, thanks Shaun. And, and to build on that, I think, um, I would echo Shaun's comments. Um, they're, COIs are incredibly important, not only from a growth perspective, but also you saw on there a retention perspective. And so I think one thing to be thinking through is, when I talk to most advisors, estate plan attorneys and accountants are kind of the big two that you hear everybody talk about.

Shaun Tucker: Mm-hmm.

Jon Wainman: Um, I think what we try to do here is take it a step further and say, if you're specializing on a, on a market or two, try to figure out what other professional providers may intersect. And so what we've tried to do is lay out different client types, right? So mass affluence, maybe it is accountants. Um, I've seen some advisors that have had tremendous s- success with divorce attorneys. For example, I met an advisor a month ago, and that is their number one referral source for the mass affluent is divorce attorneys, oddly enough.

Shaun Tucker: Mm-hmm.

Jon Wainman: Um, number two is, as you move up the wealth spectrum, there is overlap in terms of COIs, but there is some shift, right? And so, as I think about high net worth, ultra-high net worth, um, the number one driver of high net worth and ultra-high net worth wealth is small business owners, right? And so you see here, what are some various COIs that also intersect with business owners? So I would say attorneys, right, CPAs [Insert onscreen spell out - CPAs: Certified public accountants], they still matter. Um, you tend to find banking plays a bigger role. And then I think you start layering in the fact that beyond just their personal wealth, these people run businesses, right?

And so you start thinking about from a business perspective, what COIs do they engage with, right? So you think about property and casualty insurance, you start thinking about group benefits insurance, um, payroll companies, and I think even as you go up to the upper end of the market, M&A [Insert onscreen spell out - M&A: Mergers and acquisitions] activity becomes a bigger deal, right? So you've got private equity becomes a, um, becomes a bigger factor. And so I've seen advisors have success there. Um, I've met with an advisor recently and I think he'd had tremendous, tremendous success. And his biggest driver for high net worth clients was he had a trio of business bankers that fed him a ton of business, and he's drawing in a clip of $50 million a year. And so I think the point here is, yes, CPAs, estate planning attorneys are really important, but there are a lot of other professional providers that intersect with our clients. And it's good to think broad, right? It's good to expand our aperture, if you will.

Shaun Tucker: Yeah. I, I think there's a wealth of insight there around great ideas on the who with, with respect to kind of good COI partners. Uh, we don't have time to get into that, but I would encourage folks on the line to, to get with your colleagues and, and start riffing on those better ideas. Uh, so we covered the who there. Now let's talk about engaging COIs. What do we say and when do we say it? And Max, I'm gonna ask you to take us through that.

Max McQuiston: Yeah. Well, I think, I think one of the things to think about, you know, as you look, if you can, uh, put this slide up, uh, you know, think about when to ask for that, uh, introduction. And, and one of the things I'll, you'll probably hear me say, strategic partner in lieu of center of influence. I read a book that I highly recommend called Give and Take by Adam Grant. And, uh, you know, you think about, you know, are, am I, am I a taker? Am I always wanting something in return? Am I, but am I giving something, uh, in, uh, a value to someone? And I think when it relates to a COI strategic partner, to me connotates that I'm gonna, it's a give and a take.

And, and so as you look at, you know, what's on the screen and you see, you know, the first, when you, from the time you first meet a prospect starting to gather, who are the other trusted partners in their circles? Do you have a connection to them? Uh, but secondly is, you know, from when you onboard a new client, and this is a, a place I'm really passionate about for multiple reasons, client onboarding.

The reality is, most advisors when I ask 'em say, "Hey, show me what it looks like on paper." Uh, they might have something that they put in their CRM [Insert onscreen spell out - CRM: Customer relationship management] system that, that helps their team and everybody do their role. But very rarely, less than 5% of the time, do they have something that's written down, a standard operating procedure for clients to help 'em know, what do I get in the first 30 days, 60 days, 90 days?

Uh, and part of that is when you're collecting information and onboarding, who are their trusted partners in capturing their names? And, and I was working with the practice, uh, a little while ago that, one of the things, and, and this is pretty unique, but, but, uh, you know, when they tell you who their CPA is, if you don't know them, if you've never met them, uh, slowing down and say, "Hey, tell me a little about so-and-so. Uh, tell me a little about Shaun. Uh, what do you know about him? How, you know, how long have you worked with him? How good is he? Uh, if you scored him on a scale of one to five, where one is, you didn't, it wouldn't matter if you worked with someone else, to five is, you have to work with him."

If they score high, maybe you say, "That's someone I would wanna put on my list to meet." If they're a one, two, or three, what they do is say, "Hey, would you be open to considering one of the CPAs that we work closely with? 'Cause for us, we can deliver better value if we have a tight relationship. So how well do you know the COI, uh, the COIs in your book now?" And, and to me, whether it's a estate planning attorney, whether it's a CPA, so those are a couple of examples. You know, annual reviews, uh, another one as you see on the screen. But then, you know, really the, the, the, uh, the when to ask and what to say.

And I think to me, um, you know, there's no one way to say it. Um, you know, this book, Exactly What to Say, I think is a great example of, you know, Phil Jones talks about what the words are to use, but to me is, you know, would you be open to, is a great example, but thinking about, you know, working with a CPA, "Hey Max, I just met with, uh, a mutual client. Um, they, they work with you. They, they think very highly of you. And one of the things we do is we wanna help coordinate and partner together so we can deliver more value." So, so really thinking about what you would say and practice that, I would argue script it.

So first, finding out who it is you, uh, the, the COIs that you don't know. And Jon, I think you did a phenomenal job kind of expanding our thought of who a COI might be. One advisor I was working with is, uh, one of the centers of influence he had was, uh, someone who worked at a mortuary who was a client, but then she was running into people who, uh, were needing help and didn't have an advisor. And so that became a referral source. There wasn't even on that page, but it's thinking about, you know, being flexible and open.

Uh, but then as you think about what to say, and to me, one of the things that's most important, what to say is get to know them, their practice, make it about them. If it, if, if, what are the ways in which you could add value back to them? How much do you know about who they serve, who their target client is? So you would know, you know, when to partner.

My, my sister and brother-in-law sold a, a, uh, business. Their CPA offered them almost no help thinking about how to minimize taxes, how to structure that deal. Um, if you've got a, a business owner, do you have them, are they with the right CPA, someone who specialized in that? So, and then so, so get to know their business. And then if you ask a lot of questions, you ask good questions, they're gonna reciprocate and ask, "Who do you serve? And what's your target client like?" They're gonna mirror the questions you ask and they're gonna come back and ask you. And, uh, and then, you know, "Who are our mutual clients? Do we have some overlap? Who's your target? Here's my target, here's where we could work together." Um, and then, you know, share some of the ways in which you've worked with COIs.

And, uh, and, uh, and on the next page, if you look, you know, here's some examples. You'll see five of them, uh, as you flip over. Um, but one of them is, do you follow them on LinkedIn? You know, hear what they're saying. Do you pay attention to what they're saying? Maybe you, you treat 'em like you would treat a client, uh, give 'em updates. You know, for example, um, Social Security made a, uh, it was a big change the first time since 2015. We've had a major change in Social Security, January 5th, uh, of this year. Uh, that, that matters is the Social Security Fairness Act. How many of your clients, how many of your COIs have you reached out to that that might impact?

If they were government employees, they didn't pay into Social Security, uh, their benefits often were reduced under a spousal or a, a widow's benefit. How many have you reached out to, to let them know? How do you help them be better practitioners? And, and to me, when you add value to them, they are gonna reciprocate. Another example of that is, you work with estate planning attorneys. "How many of you know a proactive estate planning attorney?" I'll ask that all the time when I'm doing a, you know, event, and I'll have people, a few people raise their hand. I go, "Let me ask, let me define what I mean by proactive estate planning attorney. Shaun, we worked with you, you know, a few years ago we did an estate plan. Does, how often does an attorney call and say, 'Hey, I'm just wondering if there's any updates we need to make.'" I said, "Why don't they make that call?" And advisors will look at each other, and I said, "It's because they can't bill on that."

Shaun Tucker: Mm-hmm.

Max McQuiston: And if they bill that way ... So who do your clients count on if they need to make an update to their plan? Who do the state planning attorneys count on if they need to make an update to that plan? You look at them in the mirror every day, how good are you at issue spotting? And as you bring in other partners as you serve as a conduit, a, a connector, if you will, that give and take will come back at you.

So, so it, you know, I worked with an advisor up in the Pacific Northwest. He spends almost a week a month just working with centers of influence. He, he, he calls them and he wants to know, every time he calls 'em, he would let ... Here's what he wants to hear. You know what, Brad? I, that's something I, I wasn't aware of. I'm so glad you let me know. If they have that kind of response when you talk to 'em, they are gonna plug you in, uh, as that center of influence.

So, you know, to me, as, you know, being thoughtful about how you engage, but it's that give and take. Think of 'em as strategic partners, not just as centers of influence. It's a two-way street. Track how many referrals you gave, not just how many they gave you. Do joint events with them. Uh, you know, I've seen that happen, you know, uh, at the beginning of the year. "Hey, here's our 2025 outlook," and, and you have the CPA talk about here's the tax changes for 2025. Or we have the Tax Cut[s] and Jobs Act this year. That's gonna have to be updated. You know, how well do you keep in front of that? So anyway, these are examples of how-

Shaun Tucker: Yeah.

Max McQuiston: ... to connect with C- COIs and, and have that, uh, dialogue. And, and it needs to be intentional, but if it is, it can be a wonderful source of new business.

Shaun Tucker: No, I mean, uh, and for the audience, you can see how excited I was to assemble this expert panel. There's a wealth there. Um, reciprocity comes to mind. Two-way street comes to mind as it relates to COIs. Investing in them, putting them first, making it about them, and then you get the reciprocal benefits. So Molly, let me bring you back into the conversation and maybe we pull that same slide up. Um, but goal setting, obviously is a passion of yours. Talk about what kinds of goals need to be put in place with COIs for the most fruitful relationship.

Molly Bennard: Yeah, absolutely. And you know, just back to, um, Max's point, I think it's really important to stress that it's a relationship. Um, it's not a transaction, right? And so, um, it's really important to have, um, commitment to one another to work together. And, um, you know, I find that with our advisors, the most successful COI relationships are where each party is curious about each other to learn about one another's business and clients, so you can identify mutually beneficial opportunities with one another.

And so, um, one thing I'll also note, um, on this is, in building COI relationships, it's also important to know when to quit (laughs). So, um, you know, many times, I hear from advisors that some of their COI relationships don't give to them, but they're giving, you know, to the COI. So I'm referring relationships out to the accountant, but they never come back to me.

And so this goes back to having goals and transparent communication with your COIs. Um, and, you know, really getting alignment on what are your collective goals. So, you know, what, what are the objectives for, whether it's the quarter or the year or the month, or whatever it may be. But come up with some numbers, like how many meetings, um, you're planning on having, or how many referrals like you think the opportunity set is in sharing with one another of, "Hey, this is what we're working on here the are ... where the opportunities are," so that way you have full transparency with one another.

Um, and, you know, it goes back to that other point as, as if, if it's not working, then you obviously assess the situation, but also be, be, you know, transparent about the reality that some COI relationships don't, don't work or not ... are not effective, um, given, you know, your, your goals may not be mutual. Or you may not be both willing to invest in the relationship in the same way. So I think that's, you know, that's a really, um, important, important piece.

You know, I think, um, scheduling, um, structured time with your COIs, um, to revisit your relationship, um, is also super important. So, you know, that includes having transparent feedback with one another. "Hey, this worked, this didn't work." Or, "Hey, you sent this person over and let's go through, like, why this lead made a lot of sense and then this one was actually a really bad fit for us." And vice versa, right? Give each other that open feedback so that you can be more effective, um, with one another and strengthen your relationship.

Um, and I do think it's really important to take note, take your notes and share with one another around, um, the activities that you're doing, what the results are, and again, discussing what worked, what didn't work, and how you can better support one another, um, you know, to, to be better, um, in developing business as a partnership. Um, and again, I think it's just all about transparency and communication, and, again, measuring data and results.

Shaun Tucker: Uh, thank you, Molly. That, that was terrific. Um, all three of you have been saying really similar things, that it's really about having a true partnership through relationship building and you earn that two-way street. And the importance of that reciprocal benefit, I don't care if you're on the wrong side of the road in Australia or you're here in U.S., you have to have, a, a reciprocal benefit, a two-way street. I love what you said, Molly, about, you know, know when to quit. But then do that post-mortem, that forensic analysis on what worked and what didn't, and how you would apply that, and what you would demand outta your COIs. Great discussion.

Uh, I'm gonna segue and let's go to our fourth category. That's COIs. Now, we're gonna turn our attention to clients and, um, just look at the summary here.

Four steps as before. We wanna understand their importance, right? I'll, I'll cover that. Second, we want to talk about which clients to focus on. Third, choose when to approach them. So the when. And then once you do, what do you say when you do?

So lemme take that first one on, on why client referrals are so important and we'll throw some stats again. Uh, I know everyone on this call is probably familiar with Michael Kitces. He and his team do a study on advisor marketing every year, and it revealed some of these stats, right? Um, the latest one revealed that client referrals is the top source of new clients or advisors. And it was rated the highest success rate of any client acquisition tactic, right? So let that one sink in. This is important. We all need to do this. But I think we wanna clarify, we're not suggesting that you get referrals from all different clients. And Molly, I'm gonna come back to you. Talk to us about which ones we should focus on and, and how we should bring some, some vigor and some discipline to, to our selections.

Molly Bennard: Yeah, for sure. You know, it, it really comes back to, um, working through a segmentation model, right? Um, many advisors segment their clients based on size, right? So, you know, I have my less than 1 million, my 1 to 3s, et cetera, et cetera. And, you know, obviously the numbers move around depending on the firm.

Um, but what many advisors, um, forget to do is actually, when you're doing that segmentation, you should also be segmenting your clients, um, based on other factors. And one of them includes their advocacy. And so, um, you know, we recommend that, you know, advisors be extremely strategic and intentional around segmenting clients based on their willingness to advocate and provide referrals. Now, of course, this is not a perfect exercise because it is a subjective analysis that the advisor makes. But, um, but at the end of the day, it does create a much more, um, focused group of clients to target on.

So, you know, you know, I'm a firm believer of, again, measuring data and using your CRM and staying on top of it, right? So, you know, when we go through a strategic segmentation exercise, um, within our, with our advisors, within their, their client lists and, and their business, um, you know, we do, um, often, um, really, um, push them to, you know, segment their clients, not just based on, you know, um, quantitative statistics, but also a lot of qualitative. And it's not just about, um, whether they're advocates, it's, it's other features as well. But obviously advocacy is a very important criteria that you should be segmenting your clients on. And then really stay focused, um, you know, when it comes to asking for referrals on those clients that you believe, um, you know, have a much higher, um, you know, level of ad- advocacy for you.

Shaun Tucker: Yeah, that, that's terrific. And I want to stay on the advocacy topic, Molly, um, because there's a lot that needs to be leveraged there. And I love your comment about the evaluation and the use of data, and really understanding what a great advocate looks like and profiling it, if you will. Um, one of the greater manifestations, and I know I don't need to be telling you this, of an advocacy is to be on an advisory board, a client advisory board. And you're obviously serve on our RIA advisory board.

Um, but Jon, lemme come to you on this. Uh, can you talk to us a little bit about how powerful that is with respect to generating client referrals?

Jon Wainman: Yeah, sure. Absolutely. Um, you know, there's different ways to build advocacy. This is one. And so I think, you know, advisors that leverage some kind of advisory board, I think you're really trying to accomplish one of two things. Number one is some folks use it as a way to build networking groups with specific client types, right? Could be business owners, could be sectors of, uh, of the industry, healthcare, etc. Um, other types of advisory boards are really focused around growth and providing str- strategic input, right?

And so I think if you focus on that use case, um, to Molly's point, building the advocates, it's, it's heavily, um, um, geared around building trust with your best clients. And so I think having an advisory board where they can see the inner workings of your practice helps give people comfort and confidence on, "I should refer this advisor to my, to my best friends out there," right?

Uh, number two is the other benefit of an advisory board is you can have unbiased feedback in terms of what are some things that maybe I should be thinking about and incorporating into my business, right? And so you tend to see some advisory boards, and you can see at the bottom there, there tend to be a blend of strategic partnerships, COIs, as well as clients. And so I tend to see, this is a built-in feedback mechanism that practices can use to figure out what, what's on my radar, what should be on my radar? And quite frankly, what are some of my competitors doing? And it provides you some strategic input in terms of, here's some changes that maybe I should be considering.

I think the last thing that I would consider is, um, the best advisory boards tend not to be stagnant. So if you're considering one, having members rotate on and off every two to three years is probably a best practice.

Shaun Tucker: Yeah. Great stuff, Jon. That's, that's terrific. Terrific idea. And we would encourage folks to implement it. We have a piece on that, uh, that we can send you that, that kind of steps you through the, the execution, um, kind of, uh, details involved. So we just talked about the who. Let's go to the third step that I identified in our outline there, and let's talk about the when. So Max, when should advisors approach clients for referrals?

Max McQuiston: More often than they are, uh, short answer. But, but, uh, no, all joking aside, I think, I think the, the, uh, uh, in this book that I mentioned, you know, Exactly What to Say, Phil Jones, I think does a wonderful job. And, and, and his perspective is after client says thank you. And if you think about, you know, when a client says thank you, what do we normally say?

Shaun Tucker: You're welcome.

Max McQuiston: You're welcome. Unless we worked at Chick-fil-A and then it's my pleasure, right?

Shaun Tucker: (laughs).

Max McQuiston: So, so the reality is, what would you say above and beyond just you're welcome. And, and it might sound something like ... And again, make it your own. Make it something you're comfortable with, 'cause your body language will tell if you're comfortable saying it. If it sounds comfortable to you, it'll sound comfortable to your clients. "You know, Shaun, I, I'm glad you really, uh, valued whatever you just thanked me for. If you know someone else that would benefit from the work that we've done for you, I would love to help them. I would welcome an introduction." And then shut up. Like pause, not, not talk through it. 'Cause sometimes when you say something uncomfortable, we like to keep talking. But pause and let them react.

Or two steps out. So that's one step out. So you're welcome is neutral. One step out is, "Hey, if you know someone that would benefit from the work we've done, I'd love an introduction." Two steps out is, "You know, who do you know? Does someone come to mind that you think would benefit from the work that we've done for you?" And then don't make it about you. Make it about helping them. What I don't like, this is my own style, and you may have a different style, but my own style is not to say, "Hey, the greatest compliment you could pay us is a referral to friends and family." That doesn't seem natural to me. But I'm really comfortable with, "Hey, if there's someone you think could benefit or who do you think would benefit?" So to me is make sure you're comfortable saying it. Uh, so, so that would be, you know, number one.

Number two, I mentioned it earlier, uh, when I talked about client onboarding. Uh, but I know a lot of practices who have really focused ... They track where they get referrals from. When someone becomes a new client, they're having an experience. If it's a great experience, they want to share that. You go to a new restaurant, you want to share, you're excited about it. What kind of an experience do your clients have when they onboard with you? Have you ever asked them, could you make it better? What would you do if you wanted to make it better? And if it's not written down, if they don't see a, a process, they're more likely to be hesitant to refer you 'cause they're not sure how it went. If they can tell you are all over it, "Um, hey, here's what happens at 30 days, 60 days," you, you track all that stuff, you ask for feedback, people are gonna be much more apt to refer you. And if you don't get a referral in the first six to nine months, you're unlikely to get one from them for years, if ever.

Shaun Tucker: Yeah.

Max McQuiston: So make client onboarding a great experience. Uh, but you'll see on the screen, uh, and, uh, and Molly, lemme come to you. I know you've done a lot with client events. Talk to us a little bit about how you've leveraged client events as an opportunity to get introductions and referrals.

Shaun Tucker: Yeah.

Molly Bennard: Yeah, for sure. And, you know, I think just one of the, the quick comments is I, you know, I'm, I'm a strong believer of, you know, um, you're gonna get your best outcome when, you know, it's a positive experience. And so when you're able to wow the client and provide them, you know, with the best possible experience or outcome, you know, that is when the opportunity, you know, is to ask for the referral.

You know, and I think what's important is instead of making it a chore for clients, it becomes an extension of their appreciation. So to the, to the point around, you know, not saying the best form of a compliment is a referral, it's almost like you're giving the client a job, right? Versus having that conversation with them around, um, you know, are, do you know anyone else? So you're, you're making it more of a collaborative effort versus, you know, providing the client a job, right? So, you know, I think it's important in just thinking through how you frame the engagement with the client.

Um, but as it pertains to client events, um, they are always a really good opportunity to, um, to drive new business and ask for those referrals. And quite frankly, many of our advisors, um, you know, tend to have client events where it's a more natural way of asking for a referral in that, you know, they frequently will ask clients to bring a friend. Um, so instead of asking for the referral, they're inviting the cl- the, the referral in, um, and, you know, doing it under the guise of an experience. So, you know, whether the, the firm is having a wine tasting event or, um, you know, a unique speaker, or some type of art experience, um, or, you know, whatever it may be, um, giving your clients, um, that, that opportunity to bring along, um, a friend or a, you know, a referral that they think would, you know, enjoy the event. Um, which creates a really natural way, um, to ask your client for a referral in a way that's exciting for them, right? And it becomes a reward, um, that they get to experience something with that referral that they're bringing in, or their friend or family, or whoever it may be.

Um, so many of our advisors use that tactic with, with events. Um, what I would say is, um, and, and I think this is discussed quite frequently. But, you know, small events are always better, especially when you're asking, you know, your client to bring, to bring a friend, because it, it creates an intimate setting, allows the advisor to naturally engage with their client and with the potential, um, lead. Um, and so again, small events are always better. Um, and, you know, the intimacy does allow for that high level of engagement, um, in a much more natural setting, um, versus a big room where you're, you know, selling some kind of presentation about whether it's the markets or, you know, some type of financial topic. It doesn't really, you know, lead to that natural dialogue of, um, building relationships, right? So small events are always better 'cause it allows you to, to quickly dive in and start to build those relationships.

Shaun Tucker: Uh, it, it's a great point, Molly. I'm always reminded that people wanna work with people that they like, and so those smaller, more intimate settings, we get an opportunity to get to know them personally. Great point.

Um, we obviously, you know, take our own medicine as it relates to, uh, focusing on events. We do a lot of them at Capital Group, but we fully recognize that a lot of you have a day job and you can't be event planners all the time. I did want to make sure to mention that in the resources section, there's a link in there entitled A Financial Advisor's Guide to Planning Events. And one of the things you'll find in there is a PDF you can download with 22 ideas for different types of events that you can plan, so check that out.

Max, I'm gonna come back to you. We're gonna keep rolling here. Um, you talked to us around the COIs, about engaging COIs and some of the pointers to use. What about, um, you know, what you would do on the client side?

Max McQuiston: Yeah, so I like, you know, we showed, there was a slide earlier, uh, that, where we talked about there were advocates, um, and we called the movable middle below them, and then people who probably aren't gonna refer you. And, you know, when I ask advisors, you know, "How many of your clients are referring you?" Generally I'll get somewhere between five and 10%. In fact, one advisor I was working with, he said, he said, "Max, when I looked at my, uh, my book of business," he said, "I could track almost 70% of my clients to three different people."

And, uh, so, so the the greatest keep the advocates and do as much as you can. You know, I think, uh, Molly's point about making that part of your, uh, uh, your segmentation is really important, but how do you get the movable middle to help? And, uh, part of it is asking them for feedback. I don't think we ask for feedback very often. If you ask clients for feedback, uh, both good and bad, what are you doing that they really appreciate? What, what else could you be doing for them?

Um, but the other way is, and this is, uh, come from a team, a a couple billion dollar team growing 20% a year. Think about that kind of growth, and you're like, so I said, I said, "What are you doing to grow at that base?" He was always complaining he couldn't get enough people to, to serve all the clients. And, uh, and I said, and he said, "Well, Max, I finally figured out how use LinkedIn." I'm like, "Okay, I'm all ears." And, uh, he's in my age demographic. He has a five-handle, which sometimes mean they're not as technologically savvy as the younger generation. But there is an advantage, Shaun, to having a five-handle on your age. I can take advantage of the catch-up provision and, uh, you can't. But, no, just kidding.

But, but I think as you look at, um, how would I leverage LinkedIn, so what he did is he went and looked at all of his As and Bs, looked to see, did they have a profile LinkedIn, and then he asked to connect with them.

Shaun Tucker: Mm-hmm.

Max McQuiston: And then once a year there and every year thereafter on at, at, at, you know, one to one time, whether it's at an annual review or some other time, he has on the agenda introduction and he looks ahead, what are, who are one or two people they know that he would want to meet, and then when you ask him specifically for an introduction, "Hey Shaun, I notice you're connected to Jon Wainman. How well do you know him?" "I know him pretty well." "Do you think he'd make a good client?"

Shaun Tucker: Mm-hmm.

Max McQuiston: And then if they say yes, then he said, you know, "Jon's the kind of a, or uh, the client that we work with really well because of X, Y and Z." You identify your ideal client and he fits one of 'em. "Can I ask you a favor? Could I ask you for an introduction?" And he goes, and he goes, "Almost no one says no." And then I ask, "What would be a good way? Is it," you know, and sometimes it's grabbing a bite, playing golf, whatever it is, you know, going to a play, some, some kind of way to make that introduction. And, and, and he goes, "And that introduction when they make it feels just like a referral." 20% of people come from making a referral. 80% are comfortable making an introduction. Just replace referral with introduction. I think you'll have a lot more success.

Shaun Tucker: Terrific. That's terrific wisdom, uh, and encouragement to all of us, I think, uh, to, to, to kind of move in that direction. Incidentally, on LinkedIn, if you look in the Related Resources section, there's a great video that we're providing on how to use LinkedIn in an optimal way, a lot of what Max was, was discussing. So just thank you for that insight. Uh, great approaches, uh, that I think we can all benefit from.

Hey, let's stop here. Really rich discussion there. Let's move to Q&A 'cause there are a number of great questions, and we'll kind of do speed round here on Q&A before we wrap. Um, but just with the handful of minutes we have left, uh, maybe Molly, I'll come to you. Um, and there's a question here about, um, you said to measure how many referrals you're sending to COIs. How do you measure how many of those referrals become clients? Do you ask COIs to tell you when a referral becomes a client or follow up with the person you referred to the COI? Does that make sense?

Molly Bennard: So can you ... I think it was a two part question. Can you, so the first one was ... sorry. (laughs)

Shaun Tucker: Yeah, first ... It's okay.

Molly Bennard: Yeah.

Shaun Tucker: First one is just, um, you said to measure how many referrals you're sending to COIs.

Molly Bennard: Yes.

Shaun Tucker: How do you measure how many of those referrals become clients? Maybe we'll start there.

Molly Bennard: Yeah. So, um, that, that's comes strictly back to transparency and communication, right? So, you know, of course you, we can measure in our own CRM the number of referrals that, you know, are sent to the COI and you can tag them so then you can, um, run a report, right, at your next meeting with the COI and say, "Hey, we sent through these referrals. Let's have, let's go through it and let's do an update on how it went. Tell, tell me, you know, how was the conversation? What was their feedback? Did they, you know, did they like you? Were there follow-ups? Is there anything I can do to help?" Um, et cetera, et cetera, right? So it's, again, it's all about having, you know, scheduled follow-ups to see how you're doing and progressing the COIs and vice versa, right?

And you should, you know, go through the ones that are in the opposite direction, um, and effectively take note of status and, um, whether, you know, anything closed or not. So, you know, again, it goes back to measuring the results and then continuing to follow up. So, um, you know, I think very important to use your CRM. Not everybody uses the CRM in that way, so it has Excel spreadsheets, unfortunately, but, um, but, you know, measure the data and keep track of it and make sure you have it on your agenda for the next meeting.

Shaun Tucker: Quick follow-on question. The other one was, do you ask COIs to tell you when a referral becomes a client?

Molly Bennard: I think that kind of goes to the, to the point. I mean, obviously it would be great if they could let you know immediately. Um, but, you know, I think if you do have structured check-ins with the COI, it would be on, you know, it would be a topic for conversation, right? You'd get, you get, go through that in your agenda.

Shaun Tucker: Okay. Um, couple others here that I think we may have time for. We're getting a lot of questions from people who have been trying to get referrals from estate planners and CPAs, but no traction. Do you have any suggestions who'd like to take that?

Max McQuiston: I'll take that. I, I think I, to me is how much ... So I would say, you know, from a metric, how much value have you added to them? And, uh, you know, do you, when, do you, do you, how often do you communicate, but how often do you add value? Do you issue spot? Do you give them opportunities, you know, to, to find new business? Um, do you, uh, you know, for CPA, are you keeping 'em updated to things that they need to know, uh, be aware of, uh, so that, you know, you make them better at what they do? If they feel like you're a valued partner, uh, you know, they will, you know, often they will reciprocate.

But, but Molly made the point earlier, you gotta know when to step away. You're gonna have some of those COIs who fit under that verbiage of taker. And I, again, encourage you to read Give and Take. I think that's a great book. I know you said you're gonna read it, Shaun. I'm still waiting.

Shaun Tucker: (laughing)

Max McQuiston: Um, but, uh, but, but you know, when you think about a taker, if they're a taker, it's time to step away and find someone else that, that, but again, um, to me it's, are you adding value to that relationship? If you are, I think you'll see it unless they're a taker and then make a pivot.

Shaun Tucker: And know when to quit.

Max McQuiston: Yep.

Shaun Tucker: As, as Molly said. Absolutely.

Molly Bennard: Yep.

Shaun Tucker: Okay.

Molly Bennard: I'll throw something quick in there as well.

Shaun Tucker: Please.

Molly Bennard: Um, you know, I think, um, we, I've seen some of our advisors that, you know, um, extend the olive branch a little further, you know, and say, "Hey," um, thinking through topics that are important to your COI, and then, you know, saying, you know, for instance, um, "I'm happy to invite your clients, um, or come to your office and, you know, you, you invite your clients in and I'll do some form of a, a session around a topic that's of interest to them," you know, almost providing, um, the service to, to them and their clients to create a better, you know, a more sticky client relationship for them. And so you've extended that branch.

Now, obviously, you don't keep doing it without getting any type of, you know, feedback. Um, so again, to the taker, giver and taker concept, but that could be an idea, um, if you just think that maybe they don't know you well enough or don't trust you, um, you know, to establish a little bit more of a, you know, a deeper relationship and, and, you know, extend that olive branch, but again, be mindful of, um, whether you get anything in return.

Shaun Tucker: Yeah. Uh, great wisdom. Um, we're gonna wrap up with one last quick speed round question for you, Jon. I think it's appropriate, but you know, the, the question is, is about, uh, the, the wisdom we've been talking about on this web- webinar and its applicability to retirement plans and to retirement plan focused advisors. Any thoughts there?

Jon Wainman: Yeah. So I mean, I think, um, retirement plan focused advisors, um, think about where you're going to gain traction with that audience. So from my perspective, I think number one, that's a heavily dominated COI business, right? So from my perspective, I would be thinking about every single type of professional relationship that intersects with the small business, intersects with a small or mid-sized business. So we, we outlined some of them a few minutes ago, but think of payroll companies, property and casualty, all the different insurance type firms out there, and then banking, right? That's, that's how I would think about approaching that marketplace.

Shaun Tucker: Okay. Thanks for the quick response. Okay. We are gonna wrap up. Molly, Max, Jon, I can't thank you enough for your insights, for your time today.

Um, before we wrap up, I want to bring the audience's attention to a couple of resources that you can take advantage of immediately. Uh, don't forget the documents section on the right-hand side of your screen. There's a lot there, including some stuff on digital marketing. I know that was asked in the chat. We didn't get to it. Please check that out. That's the right-hand side of your screen. Those of you that want CE credit, there's a CE quiz there that you can take and you'll get credit. We're also highlighting a number of relevant resources on the page in front of you. And of course, if you want more, please go to practicemanagement.com. We just hope that today was really helpful to you. We hope that this leads to the right referrals for you from both clients and COIs.

Few takeaways that I wrote down, by no means inclusive, but the first thing I wrote down was organic growth is obviously critical. And we said if you're not growing, you're shrinking. Secondly, define your marketing niche. Develop a marketing plan and a referral plan. Really, really important. Third thing I wrote down, target the right COIs and clients. You gotta know when and what to say to them using the tactics and tools we discussed. We also just need to think about getting to know them as, as well as possible so that you can get that reciprocity. Fourth thing I wrote down, COI and client relationships are a two-way street. We talked a lot about that relationship, the give and take, right, the importance of quitting when you're not getting what you need. And then I think, uh, uh, most importantly, and Molly, apropos of your emphasis, set goals and measure your progress. And Molly's quote that I think we should all write down, "If, if you can't measure it, it didn't happen."

So with that, uh, just want to thank you for a great session. Thank you for your time and attention. If you have followup questions, please do reach out to your Capital Group team and we hope that you have a great rest of your day. Thank you.